[Nettime-bold] Re: <nettime> internetontology[ Cyc and D. Lenat ]

[josh zeidner <jjzeidner@yahoo.com>]

Hi Martin,

   Thanks much for the feedback... some
answers/comments:

> 
> hi all,
> 
> that is an interesting topic. knowledge of the
> world. in a database ( not
> to mention the word hierarchical, you use). i wonder
> if you ever read
> goedel...

   I am familiar with his work on logic.  "Godel,
Escher, Bach" was a very good book.

> 
> another detail: where does a fact become knowledge.
> in this case,
> knowledge has to be defined as "worth of being
> entered into this
> database". is it as soon as someone cares about it?
> as soon as someone
> pays for it? in my opinion, this is NOT the
> definition of knowledge i
> learned on the university.

   Here lies much of the problem.  We live in the age
of information, unfortunately not the age of
knowledge.  Information/Data != Thought.

> 
> but historical "events" where people decided, what
> reality is (and defined
> knowledge through this), always tend to redefine
> knowledge by neglecting
> the opinions of critics and accepting those of the
> defining ones (often
> without proof). from this view, it seems like ANY
> attempt to define
> knowledge has to be "repressive" against someone.
> take the catholic church
> in europe in the medieval ages for example.
> knowledge can so easily be
> misused, when it is based upon opinions and not
> facts (so, redefined).

  Well, this is a complex dynamic and many people have
spent thier lives trying to explain and/or "solve" it
and all I can say is that using some kind of thought
system or belief to marginalize others and "opress"
them is of course, wrong.  These opressive systems are
usually characterized by the limiting of access to
"knowledge".  It also seems that increasing the means
to trade information does not increase the total
amount of "knowledge".

> 
> i really wonder how this database handles contrary
> points of view. do they
> give different meaning a kind of "weight" or
> "propability factor". to
> reflect the situation of the real world, i would
> suggest a mixture of
> random and a link to "culture profiles". we are
> getting close to where we
> don't want to get.

  It doesnt handle contrary points of view.  As I
said, lenat plans on consilidating and discrepencies
or multiplicity.  If Cyc does take off, I would love
to see what would happen if religious fundamentalists
got thier hands on this stuff.  Another interesting
scenario with the use of this technology, would be if
there were in fact huge multiple databases of
knowledge.  We could then pit the AI's against each
other and allow them to interrogate themselves
automatically and give us a readout of thier
fundamental differences.

> 
> if you want to read more about how to define what's
> a fact and what's
> nonsense, what is DECIDED to be real (as part of the
> reality), i recommend
> the book "troika" by the strugatzky brothers
> (russian scifi authors). in
> german it is available as part of the fantastic
> "fantastische bibliothek"
> by suhrkamp verlag.

  Hmm is there publication in English?  HAs anyone
ever read the Polish Sci-Fi author Stanislaw Lem?  he
has some really interesting stuff( his most known is
Solaris )...

  -josh

> 
> 
> martin pi
> 
> ps: as i always have to post :: don't mistake bad
> english for bad
> thoughts!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, josh zeidner wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Hi Brian!
> > 
> >   Are you familiar with the Cyc project lead by
> Doug
> > Lenat?  It is essentially an attempt to construct
> an
> > ontology for the ENTIRE WORLD.  They have actually
> > managed to encode quite a bit of data.  A small
> subset
> > of it is available as open source.
> > 
> >   http://www.cyc.com
> >   http://www.opencyc.org
> > 
> >   I think that there is something drastically
> flawed
> > with the ideas behind projects such as these.  To
> > assume that knowledge is empirical or fixed would
> > result in a sort of tyranny of thought, where only
> one
> > particlar system of signification dominates( the
> one
> > that is cheapest to purchase? ), and its
> > interpretation would be the monopoly of those who
> have
> > access to the physical device.  Many would say
> that
> > this flaw would eventually make itself evident in
> > operational shortcomings, but Im afraid this may
> not
> > be the case.  Should enough people have thier
> vested
> > interests in such a technology or thought
> paradigm,
> > then it will be FORCED on people, much the same
> way an
> > inferior technology like MS-DOS is popular simply
> due
> > to commercial reasons.  And when people become
> > immersed in it, they mistake it for the truth.
> > 
> >   Lenat also expressed an interesting concern. 
> The
> > owners of Cyc released a part of it as open source
> > with the hopes that developers would independently
> > develop new ontologies using thier(proprietary)
> > encoding syntax.  What Doug Lenat was concerned
> about
> > was that there would be conflicting ontologies, or
> > possibly even a informational schism resulting in
> many
> > cyc databases of knowledge.  What Lenat hopes to
> do is
> > to have the company consolidate the data as it
> sees
> > fit.  Will Doug Lenat be the final say on "life,
> the
> > universe, and everthing?".
> > 
> >   Right now, the project seems fairly harmless.  I
> > actually applied for employment there recently. 
> But
> > could we, in the future, have a centralized
> hierachial
> > database of real world knowledge that cannot be
> > challenged simply because "thats what it says"( if
> the
> > computer says so it must be true! )?  Sounds like
> the
> > catholic church of the middle ages.  Hello dark
> age
> > part II.
> > 
> >   naturally, the military has taken interest in
> the
> > project for some reason or another.
> >  
> > 
> >  -josh zeidner
> >    
> > > >
> > > >ShelfLife, No. 8 (28 June 2001)
> > > >
> >  <...>
> > 
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> 
>                                : martin pi 
>                       contact  :
> e9626313@student.tuwien.ac.at  :  0699 10443742
>   johann strauss gasse 32 / 7  :  1040 vienna
>                                : 
> http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9626313
> 


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