Re: <nettime> Stormy weather?

> - the defeat of NATO could lead to a "decolonization" of Western
> Europe (not that this by itself leads to positive results. Repressive
> "liberal" fascism remains as likely an outcome as some sort of
> independence.)

I also wondered what you mean, given that Russia has its own awful colonial history and has been open about intending to keep all current territory as well as expanding into more. The people of Moldova and Estonia aren't happy at that prospect, not to mention those in Ukraine, who face extermination if they insist on keeping their own culture and heritage.

Then there is also the problem of Russian homophobia, which is codified in Russian law; it stands in sharp contrast to the more tolerant attitudes of Ukraine, Estonia, etc.

A useful outline of Russian colonialism can be found here: https://twitter.com/maksymeristavi/status/1495323069539405826?s=20&t=rbKDO_x5af0zzCRUyIo63g

I agree that to see resistance to Russia only as a proxy war with NATO countries is to ignore the human rights of numerous other states, and categories of people. I don't see how it is a defensible stance.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 11:40 AM Felix Stalder <felix@openflows.com> wrote:

On 12.02.23 20:50, Brian Holmes wrote:
> -- There's a war on in Europe, which is a proxy war that pits NATO
> against Russia, via the fighting force of Ukraine. Definitely check
> out the list of equipment which the US alone has sent:
> https://newleftreview.org/sidecar/posts/sleepwalking-elites
> <https://newleftreview.org/sidecar/posts/sleepwalking-elites> (list
> begins in paragraph 3)

I know this is not your point here, but to see this only as a proxy
war really reductive and reeks of a "great powers" analysis in which
some countries/people are just have to accept the fact that they are
subordinate.

The author of the NLR article comes right out with this world view:

> Ten years ago, nobody could have imagined that Europe would risk
> such a catastrophe for the sake of the Donbass – a region that few of
> us would have been able to locate on a map.

I'm sure most Ukrainians knew already 10 years ago where the Donbas was,
but why bother with their view. Also, the war in the Donbas started
2008, so not to know where the Donbas was in 2012 is really an act
of metropolitan ignorance. It happens, nothing to be proud of.

So, this war is primarily one of Ukrainian survival. I'm sure that many
in the US security apparatus see it also as a proxy-war, but I think
also Biden's theme of democracy-vs-authoritarianism plays a role. I
don't think it's a given that a republican administration under Trump
would have done the same (even if some in the military would still have
liked to fight a proxy war).

On 13.02.23 08:45, Stefan Heidenreich wrote:

> - the defeat of NATO could lead to a "decolonization" of Western
> Europe (not that this by itself leads to positive results. Repressive
> "liberal" fascism remains as likely an outcome as some sort of
> independence.)

Oh my, what this is supposed to mean, only chatGPT can explain.

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