Re: <nettime> process reporting?

[Geoffrey Goodell via Nettime-tmp <nettime-tmp@mail.ljudmila.org>]

Hi Ted,

On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 11:47:15AM -0400, Ted Byfield via Nettime-tmp wrote:
> On 29 May 2023, at 5:08, Geoffrey Goodell wrote:
> 
> > Which of those seven criteria did Menno's proposal not satisfy?  Let's be
> > specific, so that we can help fill in the gaps.  Let's do it on the list, so
> > that it is clear that we are not just rejecting proposals out of hand without
> > considering how they might be improved.
> >
> > It is OK for there to be multiple proposals, or even for multiple people to
> > offer to contribute to different functions listed above.  The more the
> > merrier; we need to see what we have.
> >
> > We're doing this in good faith -- let's get it done.
> 
> One advantage of a graying list is that many people have been through things  like this and probably recognize some of the dynamics: the push to create an air of inevitability around an option, criteria proposed and adopted in one fell swoop, the "just do it" moment. And of course things like this, when efforts to do things in the open are recast as the very image of opacity and hands that were trusted are revealed to be hidden:

There is nothing inevitable about the proposal by Menno and Geert, or any other
proposal.  What is inevitable is that we will find someone to continue the
list.  I for one would love to see alternative proposals.

I cannot speak for others, but I consider ultimatums and timelines to be rude.

There is legitimate reason to believe that someone is about to use the nuclear
option, to unilaterally shut down the list operations because, for whatever
reason, none of the proposals seemed satisfactory.  I believe that Felix said
'end of June'.  Do you suppose that if none of the proposals please him, that
he might decide to exercise force on the first of July?

Can you provide us with an assurance that this will not happen?

> On 29 May 2023, at 5:22, Geoffrey Goodell wrote:
> 
> > And, for the avoidance of doubt, we don't need moderators to
> > continue; see my earlier message. The idea that we need to
> > solicit moderators is a dangerous distraction. What we need
> > now is for people to continue running the list.
> 
> This is basically Facebook's argument: we don't need human judgment, just engineers. I don't think it's a good one, but what matters more than my view: that model works until it doesn't, and that's when the people who merely "run the list" become moderators. Better just to call them that from the beginning and, maybe, say one community ideal is for mods to be as minimal and low-key as possible.

No, this is nothing like Facebook.  There are no curated feeds or sophisticated
black boxes here.  Our list just forwards messages.  Thank goodness, since
otherwise mine would never get through!

> Geoffrey, I don't know whether it's your intent, but one effect of your heavy-handed advocacy might be to discourage a wider or more free-form conversation. In fact, Felix and I have been trying to push offlist proposals *onto* the list for open discussion. People are often more willing to talk privately that publicly ??? in part out of concerns that good-faith ideas might be ensnared in negative conversations.

Maybe, although it is hard to believe given Felix's ultimatum.  I'd like to
believe that we all sincerely want the same outcome.

> So I'll make two requests. First, that people try to think about this more creatively and less cynically ??? say, in terms of what's desirable rather than what's inevitable. (The only thing truly inevitable thing here is that, sooner or later, someone will make a Succession reference. ????) And, second, Geoffrey, that you say what you have to say then leave ample space and time for others. I'd like to do the same, and I take Felix's relative quiet as endorsing that approach.

Sure, I think others can take my argument from here; after all, it's not about
me.  But I don't want to read any more threats to shut down the list, do you?

Best wishes --

Geoff

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